IDIODC #272 - feat. Moe Porier - Jul 29 2026
Welcome and Guest Intro
[00:00:00]
Chris Van Wingerden: Hey, folks. Welcome to Instructional Designers in Offices Drinking Coffee. #IDIODC, is brought to you by the team here at dominKnow, makers of dominKnow ONE, helping L&D teams to develop, scale, and deliver learning that maximizes employee value.
Folks, we have, Moe Poirier joining us here today. Moe, hey, it's your first time joining us, so introduce yourself to our gang.
Moe Poirier: Yeah, right on. thanks, Chris. I'm founding partner of a [00:01:00] boutique shop called Shift Facilitation, and we are experts in facilitation skills training, and on a mission, right, to- Hmm
elevate the work that facilitators do in training rooms, meeting rooms, and, and that might stretch sometimes, right? Where do facilitators show up is a great question, too.
Chris Van Wingerden: Yeah, yeah.
Facilitation vs Training
Chris Van Wingerden: So, we're using that word facilitation and that other word facilitator. Let's start there, 'cause I think most people think of training as a trainer at the front of the room, or- Right
instructor. But in our space, we do often have that, that word facilitator and facilitation. So talk us through a little bit about facilitation versus maybe the more traditional understanding of a trainer, for instance, standing in the front of the room.
Moe Poirier: Yeah, right on. The simplest way into that conversation is the direction, the flow of the conversation and how that's happening.
So I think we would essentially say- A trainer is imparting, is [00:02:00] transferring wisdom, experience, expertise. So we typically frame that as a one-way conversation. If we add facilitation, then there's an exchange. There's... It's bidirectional. So now we have two-way conversations. The facilitator becomes a host for a conversation that invites many voices into the training room.
And I would also say, it's a huge bias of mine, a facilitator may not be the expert, right? It's, it's possible that the people in the room have the expertise, and we're trying to figure out how to move forward to solve a problem, let's say, or work through some challenge or issue.
Chris Van Wingerden: Right on. Right on.
A thought just popped into my head as you were talking about that, and I know back in the earliest days already of my time in this space, the phrase that was going around was the moving away from the sage on the [00:03:00] stage. Yeah. I haven't thought of that in 20 years, but anyway.
Moe Poirier: Yeah. Um, what was it?
I mean, early days, right? Was it, Bob Pike's book, like Training Ain't Telling?
Chris Van Wingerden: Okay.
Moe Poirier: So you know, there were early adopt- So I'm standing on the shoulders of giants here,
Chris Van Wingerden: Chris.
Moe Poirier: this isn't the first time we're talking about this, for sure.
Chris Van Wingerden: No, it's... It has been a thing for a while, that's for sure.
Moe’s Origin Story
Chris Van Wingerden: And let's just go, a little bit down, you know, how did you get into this space? what's your origin story?
Moe Poirier: Oh my God. Okay, great. So I'm an engineer, and I'm from... You know, I'm Canadian, graduated from a Canadian engineering school. I'm an electrical engineer with a management degree.
Got a pinky ring to prove that. Mm-hmm. The iron ring story is a uniquely Canadian thing for engineers. And what happened for me, yeah, third year of engineering school, I started a summer camp for kids teaching science, engineering, technology. So we would take kids out onto the football field and launch water balloons [00:04:00] with surgical tubing.
Talk about projectile motion, acceleration, deceleration, draw graphs and curves to map the path, and that just lit me up. Now I'm leading an experiential learning program, and that was really the... That's the origin story.
That was the very beginning for me.
Chris Van Wingerden: Very cool. Yeah. that, and that's a very different one than many folks in our space were, "Well, I was working on this project, and I knew the most, so they asked me to be the trainer, and it turned out I kinda like that work, and I really found it satisfying, and I...
That's how I ended up into that space." Right on. And water balloons, I don't think anyone's ever gotten into our space with wa- or I've heard that anyway, anyone's gotten into our space with water balloons before.
Moe Poirier: Yeah. Well- Right
Chris Van Wingerden: on ... and,
Moe Poirier: and this was just down the, the 417, Highway 417, 'cause I was at Ottawa U.
Chris Van Wingerden: Okay.
Moe Poirier: Yeah.
Chris Van Wingerden: Yeah ...
Moe Poirier: yeah, in, in the engineering building.
Chris Van Wingerden: Explaining the reference, dominKnow is headquartered in Ottawa. The 417 is the major freeway that runs, sort of bisects the city and, et cetera. [00:05:00] Yeah. and you were also i- identifying your Canadianness earlier with your moose mug.
Moe Poirier: Yeah. Thank you. Yeah.
Chris Van Wingerden: Thank you.
Moe Poirier: Cheers.
Chris Van Wingerden: So you've been doing this for a while. Mm-hmm. and I don't mean that to feel harsh. 'Cause I've been doing this for a while too. I openly admit, that.
Book Project Genesis
Chris Van Wingerden: But, you're, you've been working on, a pretty special project, and that project actually is being published, not too long from now by ATD Press.
you've put together a book called The 5 Personas of Facilitation.
Moe Poirier: Mm-hmm.
Chris Van Wingerden: and so where did the, the idea for the book come from, or what was its kind of origin story, or, or when did it start coming together for you? What brought it about?
Moe Poirier: Yeah. so we're working on a, a massive national project.
We're rolling out, leadership programs at Tim Horton's, so another Canadian classic story. our coffee and donut shop, right? And so we're training, leaders in, in the stores, in the quick serve restaurants. And what we have is a team of 30 [00:06:00] facilitators who are spreading out across the country to deliver the programs.
And there's six modules. And we've got a year to get it done. So what happens is they come all together, right? And company based in Guelph called Eagles Flight was running the program, and I was one of the lead coaches. So those facilitators would come in, and we'd spend time learning the content, but by the time we got to the second, third module, they knew how to read a facilitator guide. They knew how to pick up the content and go through the motions, if you will.
They got really good at that. But then a new layer emerged. It was, how are they showing up in the room to be a catalyst for the change in behavior, that the program was trying to drive? And so in these coaching moments, sitting in the room as they're rehearsing and [00:07:00] practicing with new content, now we're adding layers of how do you bring emphasis to a key point that squeezes their hearts, if you will, right?
'Cause getting buy-in is not a logical conclusion. Something else has to resonate in the room for people to say, "Hey, I get this, and I'm willing to make this change." So yeah, the genesis of the five personas was how might we, right, asking this design question, how might we help facilitators figure out who they are and bring their unique presence and style and strengths and characteristics to the room to inspire that change?
Chris Van Wingerden: and the book has a very specific title, The Five Personas .
Moe Poirier: Right. Yeah.
Chris Van Wingerden: Um, [00:08:00] it's not just, some personas or various sorts of, other less specific perspectives on it.
Meet the Five Personas
Chris Van Wingerden: So, let's maybe jump into what those five personas are.
Moe Poirier: Yeah, you got it.
I'll mention too as we kick this off, it's the five personas is competency-based. So we're building from the ATD capability model. Okay. The Institute, right, the Institute for Performance and Learning, their professional competencies. So underneath this is the standards and the expectations that we expect for facilitators in a training room.
All right, so here they are, right?
Persona One Sensei
Moe Poirier: The five personas are the sensei, the drill sergeant, the superhero, the confidant, and the jester. So now we've got these five archetypes, if you will, and they are portals. They give us access to what those underlying competencies and best practices are. So, [00:09:00] hey, I'm a trainer, guess what?
I should be a subject matter expertie- expert and have some credibility in the room, Chris, right?
Chris Van Wingerden: One would think.
Moe Poirier: So I need the sensei to show up, and how I use analogies, how I use stories, how I explain complicated models or the steps of a process. Think about teaching customer service reps the call flow, right, in a call center, and how critical that is, and helping them understand why, right, all of these steps are in the flow, and not to skip steps.
That's the work of the sensei. And we, we add this archetype of the sensei because- There's deep respect when this, like, in the training room, that's what I want. I want deep respect and trust, and that indicates this connection and an exchange between [00:10:00] the learners and the teacher.
Chris Van Wingerden: Yeah. if you're standing in front of a room of folks and you don't...
If you can't, convince them that you are authentic and, Right ... y- you know, about the topic, I can imagine standing in a room full of, of engineers and me with my English degree, we may have some bridge-building to put in motion, so.
Moe Poirier: Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly right.
And so now you've offered us another gift of insight, Chris, from the personas, because we start with examining ourselves as facilitators, and where are my strengths and where can I develop and grow? And I take off my facilitator hat, and I reach over here and I put on my learner or participant hat, and you've called out that there's an impact.
So if my sensei isn't strong, I will lose the room. The impact for participants is the [00:11:00] facilitator can't answer a basic question. Now respect is gone, trust is gone, and like I said, I'm losing the room Mm-hmm ...
Chris Van Wingerden: someone on LinkedIn has popped in: still sounding a bit like sage on the stage versus learner-centered constructivist, learning.
But we have other personas that I think take us further away maybe or, or help, amplify or take us in other directions than simply the sage on the stage. But what you're mentioning here, it, it actually flags for me something that I've just realized because coming into this conversation- Yeah ... I kind of assumed that the five personas, you're gonna figure out which one you are and you're in that persona.
But am I understanding, all five of these are things that we ought to be able to draw on and layer, as opposed to I am a sensei or somebody else comes in and they are, you know, the confidant or, or something like that? Or-
Moe Poirier: Yeah. you got it. it's about balance. And again, if we go to the learner point of view, at different [00:12:00] times the participants in the room need different things from me in order for this to be a successful learning experience.
Persona Two Drill Sergeant
Moe Poirier: So let's go to the drill sergeant.
Chris Van Wingerden: Mm.
Moe Poirier: When we're running practice drills, when we're running activities and exercises in the room, again, remember that we've made an assumption here that this is an exchange-based learning environment, and we might even go to experiential learning, 'cause the most valuable thing we can do in the training room when we're all together is practice and apply, right, the new skills we're learning.
So we need the drill sergeant to give clear instructions and keep people safe because they understand what they're expected to do, and the drill sergeant gives you encouragement when they see you jumping in and giving things a try. They also will help correct you gently to keep you on track.
Chris Van Wingerden: Yeah, I, and I haven't thought about [00:13:00] constructivism in a while.
Uh- Mm-hmm ... but, even that sort of learner centric needs structure, right? You do need to make sure that folks stay on track. And even as you were mentioning, the sense of, clarity first of all, because that reduces the sense of being at risk.
They know what they, need to accomplish. They're not kind of going- Right ... "I don't know." Right. You know, they can give them a clear target of what to try to achieve or- Right ... or what to, to go for.
Moe Poirier: Right.
Chris Van Wingerden: and even just keeping folks on time. Right.
Moe Poirier: Well, that's it. Like, poor instructions are a disservice to the participants, because now it's wasted energy on confusion- Right
and, and trying to sort out what they're supposed to do. So let's keep the limited resources, the energy that they have focused on productive work.
Chris Van Wingerden: Yeah. So sensei is your ability to establish- Authority and authenticity. And, and I don't... Maybe authority sounds like a sternness or, or whatever.
But- Yeah ... but having, I guess instilling confidence that you are someone who can be trusted in this subject matter [00:14:00] expert, and is going to be beneficial standing, standing in the room, not necessarily at the front of the room- Yep ... you know, with folks. you've got the, the drill sergeant who's...
I mean, that does kind of evoke, the movies version of the drill sergeant shouting in someone's face, et cetera. But-
Moe Poirier: Right ...
Chris Van Wingerden: I, I sense that you're leaning more into the keeping things on track, on task, you know, structure, moving things along, et cetera. And I think probably very few of us would actually be standing in someone's face and yelling at them.
Yeah. You maggots. I mean, u- unless it's an entomology program. In which case, maybe calling people maggots is part of the activity. I don't know.
Moe Poirier: Oh, oh, I love the playfulness. so y- you got it.
Chris Van Wingerden: I, I, I mean, your fifth one's the jester, and I have a hunch that I'm strong in that. The- But anyway.
You- We'll get there eventually.
Moe Poirier: Yeah, that's right. The drill sergeant is misunderstood. We're pulling from archetypes that are familiar. That makes the character, right, easy for us to appreciate and understand. However, there is a [00:15:00] warning, and you're right. In the book, the story is about this really gentle and calm yoga instructor.
Chris Van Wingerden: Mm-hmm.
Moe Poirier: Very clear instructions about what we're being asked to do, and corrections in my body position, helping me with my breathing. It's very supportive and productive in a gentle way. So we lose that aggression you talked about. Yeah.
Chris Van Wingerden: I do have a class, it's a bunch of guys doing, yoga-based...
It's not a pure yoga thing. But one of the things that... The instructor, though is a woman, and one of the things that I've noted in the couple of years that I've been going is just how she does that kind of- explanation of what we're going to do next, and very often she knows the room well enough that she knows which activities we're about to do, where she throws in the alternate.
if you can't do the deep squat, here's the alternate. and she says it almost every session, and part of your brain might say, "Well we all know that," but by [00:16:00] reinforcing it, she's giving you permission to do an alternate, et cetera, it seems to me.
but she, she seems to do, a very good job of understanding who's in the room and knowing so and so might have a problem in this area.
Got a bad knee, so, you know, deep squat, let's do the alternate or at least make sure that there's... everyone understands there's permission to not be perfect for this particular activity. It's a real neat skill to watch.
Moe Poirier: Well, yeah, lovely, and that's the value of using personas, 'cause then you can look out into the world and find examples, just as you did- Mm-hmm
where your, your own experience informs how you might support others.
Chris Van Wingerden: Okay, so we've got the sensei.
Moe Poirier: Yeah.
Chris Van Wingerden: We've got the drill sergeant.
Moe Poirier: Yeah.
Chris Van Wingerden: Who's number three?
Moe Poirier: n
Persona Three Superhero
Moe Poirier: umber three is the superhero. So this is- Optimism and hope and possibility, the belief that we can make the world a better place.
And that belief has to be present, that [00:17:00] conviction, if you will, has to be present in the facilitator. And so that hopefulness, that positive energy, believing in the participants. And we've seen lots of studies that show when the teacher believes that the class are all A students, they outperform their peers.
Chris Van Wingerden: Hmm.
Moe Poirier: And so we bring that in through the superhero persona. And the other unique skill of the superhero is that they see potential in the room, and they will see superpowers in their learners often before the learners see it in, in themselves.
Chris Van Wingerden: Hmm.
Moe Poirier: And what a magical gift then, right? That belief that it's possible, that we can do it, and we can all improve.
So and then we go to Carol Dweck's work and we say, well, that brings in the growth mindset principles, right? Now we're starting to add some fuel with that thinking, that type of [00:18:00] thinking.
Chris Van Wingerden: Mm-hmm. So I, you know, I'll check back in with the LinkedIn user. Are we starting to sound a little less than sage on the stage and a little more towards,
learner-centric constructivist learning? hey, guide gang, we're all on a journey here together.
Moe Poirier: Yeah.
Chris Van Wingerden: That's where we're going.
Moe Poirier: Yeah.
Chris Van Wingerden: Ah. so I mean, anything further to understand about the superhero?
Moe Poirier: Yeah. Well, again, so we will play with, and, and so when we do this work with facilitators, we invite them to think about too much and not enough.
So let's play with that just for a second. Yeah. 'Cause the, the superhero is a great example. too much superhero, and I don't know what the facilitator's on, but it scares me, right? it's like it's out of touch with reality because it's rainbows and unicorns, you know? And it's like that's not my world, so I can't relate to that.
On the other extreme, not enough superhero, and why [00:19:00] bother? We give up because there's no hope. There's no possibility. So we like playing with those extremes 'cause it really illustrates nicely how the personas contribute to the learner experience.
Chris Van Wingerden: Hmm. Ah, rainbows and unicorns
Moe Poirier: Yeah.
Yeah.
Chris Van Wingerden: Well, o- on the one hand, rainbows does tie at least into your, technical physics background, I guess. But- Yeah ... unicorns, I think that leans a little bit maybe more towards my, my own English degree background. Flights of fancy, so. so, the sensei, the drill sergeant- Yeah ... the superhero.
Moe Poirier: Yeah.
Chris Van Wingerden: who's next in our palette? Who's next- Yeah, right on ... in our cast of characters?
Persona Four Confidant
Moe Poirier: Number four is the confidant, and this persona is masterful at paying attention to the signals in the room. There's a connection, a relationship, empathy, [00:20:00] psychological safety, emotional safety, even physical safety so that we create a space where the learners feel seen, heard, valued.
the confidant creates a sense of belonging and inclusion they're counting the number of voices and keeping track of the quiet ones, and finding some gentle spaces where those quieter ones can be invited in. And you've already hinted at it, even with the sensei and the drill sergeant, the confidant is very, very wisely meeting the participants where they are because it's about relevance and understanding their world and some of the challenges they're facing.
Chris Van Wingerden: And Chris, I can imagine you've been in a training room that turned into a therapy session because for whatever [00:21:00] reason, that's what the room needed. Mm. That's what the participants needed to be heard. I
Resistance Needs Context
Chris Van Wingerden: would imagine sometimes, like just the sense of change- Right ... can be the thing itself that's-
That the therapy session needs. I know early on, in my time was doing training with our software in a group, and there was one person in the room who just, she was muttering under her breath, and, "This is stupid," and like- Mm ... like literally I'm hearing this. It's not a big room. There's 12 of us.
Moe Poirier: Right.
Chris Van Wingerden: And this and that, you know, and muttered "Curse, curse, curse." And, and so I think then, at the lunch break, 'cause it was a full day session and there were like three full days going on of this, and so I, I checked in with the team leader and I said, " this person, help me understand," or whatever.
And he said, "Oh, she's someone who actually won't be doing the full work in the tool," in our case of making e-learning courses. She's part of the team that would write stuff and prepare stuff.
Moe Poirier: Yeah.
Chris Van Wingerden: And she doesn't have a comfort level beyond, say, a Word document, for instance.
So, and I went, "Oh, okay." and and [00:22:00] he did I think actually end up speaking to her and checking in, so like, you know, breathe or whatever. But once I understood that, then- I had context to be able to put myself a bit in her shoes and go, "Okay, someone who feels really threatened obviously."
Yeah. To the point where she's muttering under her breath-
And being resistant to, to things, so.
Moe Poirier: People have a story. Appreciating that people arrive with best intentions. Like, everyone wants to succeed. That's a pretty important underlying belief.
Chris Van Wingerden: Mm-hmm.
Moe Poirier: You know? The confidant's response is, "Are you okay?"
Right? Because it comes from a place of care and concern for the people in the room.
Chris Van Wingerden: Yeah. And,
Moe Poirier: and the listening skills and the ask- Like, the ability to ask good... Like, so inquiry-based learning, that's a strength of the confidant as well, 'cause they're asking good questions that get conversation going in the room.
Chris Van Wingerden: Right on.
No Stupid Questions
Chris Van Wingerden: And sticking with this, maybe a practical [00:23:00] thing, but, as we've been talking about this, something that's sort of popped onto my radar. So many times, when I'm working with folks, there's someone who says, well, sorry, maybe it's a stupid question,"
and I, I mean, I, I try to say something, you know, like, "Hey, nope, nope, there are no stupid questions. It's, occurring to you. I wanna know about it." But, from the perspective of your personas, et cetera, 'cause I think it's something we all encounter if we're doing this kind of situation.
what strategies would you use in that kind of a case to, I guess, reassure or?
Moe Poirier: Yeah. let's name it again. Like, you're pointing to a specific example, or you see this happening universally, right? People apologizing for asking questions and engaging. And that, now that's a safety concern, right?
Mm. because I don't want you to feel embarrassed. I don't want you to feel like you have to hold back. And your words, no stupid questions. I hear facilitators use that phrase often. this, thanks for the question, right? Simple, elegant- Mm ... polite, gracious [00:24:00] phrasing, that doesn't have to be over the top.
Like, so, "Hey, thanks for the question." I'm acknowledging that you took a risk, by putting up your hand. I will name a que- "Hey, that's a courageous question."
Chris Van Wingerden: Mm.
Moe Poirier: Right? So name it. "Hey, thanks for asking that question. I have a feeling everyone else in the room was thinking it, and I appreciate that you put up your hand to ask."
Chris Van Wingerden: Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
You're probably not the only one thinking that, so-
Moe Poirier: R-
Chris Van Wingerden: r- right. R- right. So- Moving it forward.
Moe Poirier: Create a se- I'm, now I, I might use that move intentionally, especially if I have some background on where the group is at on that change curve that you were describing- Mm-hmm ... just a second ago.
Yeah.
Chris Van Wingerden: I just added some extra skills to my quiver.
Moe Poirier: There we go.
Chris Van Wingerden: Awesome.
Moe Poirier: Nice.
Jester Brings Play
Chris Van Wingerden: So the sensei.
Moe Poirier: Mm-hmm.
Chris Van Wingerden: The drill sergeant.
Moe Poirier: Mm-hmm.
Chris Van Wingerden: The superhero.
Moe Poirier: Yeah.
Chris Van Wingerden: The confidant.
Moe Poirier: Yeah.
Chris Van Wingerden: And then, and then in walks Chris the jester.
Moe Poirier: In walks Chris the jester. Yeah. I've heard, there are some things that [00:25:00] I have a bias against.
So I cringe at edutainment. I'm not in the entertainment business. That's not what I aspire to. However, there should be joy in the learning experience. We should be celebrating the fact that we are all here to get better at something. and so that joyfulness also becomes playfulness in the training room.
The jester is the second most misunderstood, Chris. So you've called out the drill sergeant being misunderstood. Mm. The jester is also misunderstood. I don't need to be funny. That's not my job. In fact, in very serious, a- training courses that have serious implications and consequences, I have no right to be telling jokes or trying to be funny.
However, we can approach this [00:26:00] topic with a sense of experimentation, with a sense of exploration, and we might even laugh at ourselves for some of- Mm ... the mistakes that we make along the way. And if we go back to impact on the participants, the right amount of jester- Invites risk-taking. Because as humans, we know that when we play, we optimize our learning DNA, right?
Like, now we're in a space where we can play and we can tear it down. It doesn't matter. It's okay. There's zero risk. And so in inviting participants into the room with that spirit is the jester's work. And if you're playful as the facilitator, your participants will reflect that back to you. I love that.
And then historically, if we look at the jester character, they also have an important role [00:27:00] to play to challenge assumptions, to challenge authority, to question things in the world that everybody just takes for granted. And that's a playful activity as well. The jester is making fun of the king.
Chris Van Wingerden: Mm.
Moe Poirier: Right?
Chris Van Wingerden: Yeah. I mean, humor is, is very subjective. so you definitely have to- Right ... have had some measure of being, the confident m- to be able to understand the room before you would even make a wise crack about certain... you have to understand-
Moe Poirier: Right ...
Chris Van Wingerden: et cetera.
But, even in serious- Right ... things, just a, often a little bit of, humor can, can break a bit of stress, pull people in.
Moe Poirier: Right ...
Chris Van Wingerden: you know, so,
Moe Poirier: Right. There's a reason why Shakespeare uses comic relief It's so that we can deal with really heavy- Mm
important topics that need to be addressed.
Chris Van Wingerden: Right on.
Facilitator Continuum
Chris Van Wingerden: Whoa, LinkedIn user has popped back in. "Actually, it still sounds a bit like the facilitator is the center of the learning experience versus being the guide to the learning [00:28:00] experience.
It may be that we're starting from two different origination points. traditional instructional design versus learning experience design. Facilitator needs a presence for sure. Agree that they need to be a go-to for guidance and learners feel safe embarking on the journey.
As far as answering questions, the LX facilitator would answer logistical questions. But for content related questions, the facilitator should facilitate the group to answer, reinforcing the group's learning and engaging the formative assessment in the process." Mm-hmm. "Uh, the inclusion of peer-to-peer learning reinforces learning and problem-solving and addresses many learner questions."
there's a lot, and thank you for chiming in with that.
Moe Poirier: Yeah ...
Chris Van Wingerden: it offers a great deal of insight and thoughtfulness for sure.
Moe Poirier: Yeah. Thank you. It's, so I agree.
What, what's been brought forward is very, very powerful and, and I think ... Well, my thoughts about this are we're looking at a continuum. And so this design of the experience, yes, in a very traditional sense, the facilitator, [00:29:00] trainer has the most knowledge about the subject that's, being shared.
In the other extreme on this continuum, the facilitator truly is a process guide. And we think about that. That also shows up in the definition of facilitator. So if we go to the body of knowledge, in pure facilitation, I have zero subject matter expertise, and my role is entirely to guide the group towards an outcome.
I do know about process. I, I do know about team dynamics. I am, an expert at reading the room, and I have a back pocket full of what might we do next in order to help the group continue to progress towards the goal. And I love that. I think our user is naming that and calling it out.
The personas still show up. It... [00:30:00] The sensei is less teacher in that extreme where they're the process guide. However, the sensei is a master of team dynamics, of structures, of process, right? And the drill sergeant shows up because there's work to be done. The participants have something they need to achieve.
So there's truth in what we're discussing.
Chris Van Wingerden: Right on.
Yeah.
Moe Poirier: I, I'll share some data, Chris. We've had just under 1,000 facilitators take the online assessment, and the data shows that the jester consistently shows up as a strength the least.
It's only 7% of the time.
Chris Van Wingerden: Huh.
Moe Poirier: Now, I, I don't think that's because no one's a jester. I think that's because in corporate world, in the business world, it's a permission problem, right? I don't wanna look silly because that's gonna be a career-limiting move for me. [00:31:00] So it's a perceived risk, I think, problem.
Sure.
Chris Van Wingerden: Yeah,
Or, even self-assessing in that regard. Not even just like the- Right ... actual consideration, but when you're, um- Right ... trying to think about this.
Assessment Tool Build
Chris Van Wingerden: So you've just mentioned just under 1,000 folks. Let's, let's swing over to that. Like, tell us about that process where you came, y- you brought all this stuff together.
How, how'd you go about it? Tell us about the survey or whatever tools you were using.
Moe Poirier: Yeah.
So we took that experience of helping this group of 30 facilitators in the train the trainer experience, and we s- we prototyped a set of statements, again, connected to competencies, and people self-score.
So the first prototype was paper-based. We played with that for about a year, and then we built an online software tool that a lot, that made it a, an online experience for folks. So we have 14 statements for each of the personas, [00:32:00] and we decided to split them so there's seven statements for the sensei that are about your mindset, your beliefs, your assumption about the role of the sensei.
And then we have seven statements that measure your behavior, the actions you take as a sensei in a training room. So we map all that out, you, and then you get a personalized report that gives you your scores and makes some development recommendations. this really is a development tool.
It's giving us a language to evaluate the work that we do and how we show up in a training room, and then creates opportunities for us to continue to grow and improve our presence, if you will, how we show up and experiences that we create for others.
Chris Van Wingerden: Right on. and then all of those survey takers, you were then being a- able [00:33:00] to take everything that you observed from, from those, et cetera, and that kind of fueled some of what you were doing in the book then.
Moe Poirier: So the learning process for us as we move along in this work, yeah, that data set gives us some pretty interesting insights. So here's the other- Hmm ... the other side of the, of the story is, 60, almost two-thirds of the time, people name their top strength as the confidant. That's interesting to me.
Chris Van Wingerden: That is, yeah.
Moe Poirier: Yeah, so why is that? it's because I think people come to training from a humanistic- I- You know, right?
Chris Van Wingerden: That was crossing my mind, and I didn't wanna maybe overgeneralize something. But yeah. You don't get into this space,if you don't wanna try to be helpful.
Moe Poirier: Right.
Chris Van Wingerden: And, and some level of empathy, wanting to be helpful, wanting to help people improve.
If you haven't got that, it's probably an indicator that you're not in a great role or [00:34:00] there might be other things that you're better suited for.
Moe Poirier: W- now we're talking about intrinsic motivators for people- Mm-hmm ... in, in learning and development, right? Be of service to others is, I think, a natural instinct for me.
Chris Van Wingerden: Yeah.
Transactional vs Transformational
Chris Van Wingerden: What I'm thinking is you've had this whole career of doing this, observing other people doing this type of work.
tell us... what's the... I, I don't even wanna use the word worst, but, what's the opposite of these examples that you've seen and the effect that it had in, in the circumstance? What's the worst thing people could do? But, you know, an example of something like that that you observed.
Moe Poirier: Yeah. I'm, I'm scratching my head 'cause it's- Oh ... it's a great question. You're making me think deeply about that. I, I'm not sure that it's a worst, but let's call it the lowest common denominator.
I show up in a training room as a participant and the instructor is transactional. "Here's the information you [00:35:00] need, here's the thing to practice. Good luck." I got what I needed at a very basic, level. Table stakes. I got the information, I got the new model, I got the new process, I understand the skills that I'm being asked to replicate or, apply in my job.
but I didn't connect with anyone. I don't have a relationship with anyone else in the room. I don't know what other people's perspectives are on this. it feels rather empty and isolated. And I think we have this debate as designers, right? Is this an experience that we need to bring people together for?
Or is this information that we can share in a more effective, efficient- Mm ... way? And that debate rages on. My argument is, if we've decided to bring people together, then the role of the facilitator is transformational. it [00:36:00] goes way beyond just the transactional pieces that we can share. This is the texture of the experience.
It's the culture, the values of the organization.
It's a touch point, that tells me about my place in this organization and how I fit in.
Chris Van Wingerden: Yeah. our job in the organizational learning and development, organizational training space is really to help people change behaviors. And simply giving them the info doesn't do that.
Moe Poirier: Right. Right. Back to some wisdom that was shared with me squeeze their hearts, get their buy-in. I- yes, I'm a... You got it. I love it. A facilitator is a catalyst for change. You are in the change business whether you know it or not. So [00:37:00] yeah, that framing is a powerful one when facilitators start to reorient themselves to that role, 100%.
Chris Van Wingerden: Very cool.
Wrap Up and Plugs
Chris Van Wingerden: Yeah the book isn't out yet.
Moe Poirier: Yeah, available in, the US market September 29th.
Chris Van Wingerden: Okay.
Moe Poirier: And my latest check on Amazon in Canada, delivery date was expected October the 9th, so a couple days later as it gets across the border.
Sure. Yeah.
Chris Van Wingerden: Yeah. Right on. Moe, thank you so much for joining us here today. what a really cool conversation. We've had so many conversations lately, and our tool itself is all about helping folks, typically without a human in the room e-learning- Yeah ... job aids, other technology-based things.
it's been a while since we've had a conversation about, about just being human it seems to me. So thanks for joining us and, and bringing this to us here, gang.
Moe Poirier: Yeah. Thanks, Chris.
Chris Van Wingerden: Awesome. And thanks again to the, to the LinkedIn users in the chat. Those were, fabulous and thoughtful, and, awesome things to, to bring to our conversation today.
Sure appreciate [00:38:00] it. Don't forget, folks, as always, Instructional Designers In Offices Drinking Coffee is brought to you by dominKnow, makers of dominKnow ONE, helping L&D teams to develop, scale, and deliver learning that maximizes employee value.
hit up our website, dominknow.com. earlier, in the spring, we released a, a report The State of Learning Content Management 2026 report. That's available on, our website if you wanna, check into some of the insights. Very, and it's survey and, and data-based. it's not just us, blathering on.
So check out dominKnow.com for that. and Moe, I think it's time to dance on out of here.
Moe Poirier: Right on.
Chris Van Wingerden: Get your moose mug in motion.
Moe Poirier: Thanks, Chris. Cheers.
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